some thoughts about girls

[lauralh]

I have a theory about gender. Well, several. Not just about gender, i mean it's all interconnected.

anyway here's the basics of it:
1) in today's society, there is no way to differentiate between nature vs. nurture, and in fact they both interact with each other as a sort of feedback loop. So a girl may have a slight tendency to be tomboyish or uberfemme, and being encouraged to do either will increase the tendencies.

2) culturally¹ speaking, the way little girls socialize is kind of wacky and, as I didn't have any female friends as a child², I don't really understand it.

3) girls who had lots of female friends as children then grow up into that standard stereotype of woman more or less. You know the kind, the kind that misogynists describe.

4) girls who didn't don't so much, but there may still be tendencies, so if they get female friends in high school of the former type, they might be pushed that "standard woman" direction. Although if they get friends like them it's not as pronounced, or nonexistent.

5) these girls also have far more male friends than female friends, if any.

so anyway these are sort of my "working rules of thumb" that i have, mostly based on anecdotal evidence but, nonetheless serving me well enough. needless to say I try to hang out with the "male-socialized" females rather than the "female-socialized" females when I can.

[1] north american culture is all I can speak for.
[2] well, I had a couple, and was mystified when they totally stopped talking to me during the school year.

Comments

[alicetiara.livejournal.com]

That's total crap. I had tons of female friends growing up and I'm not your standard "stereotype of woman", whatever on earth you mean by that: superficial? Shallow? Obsessed with getting married? Obsessed with appearance? It's my experience that those women who _act_ like that are very rarely actually _like_ that. Honestly, I don't know that many girls like that at all.

I went to a women's college with 2200 people for four years and I saw zero, zip, zilch in terms of universal commonalities among women, male or female socialized or not.

What if a girl spent her childhood with sporty girls? With gay guys? With nerdy girls? With popular guys? I'm sorry, but this theory sounds like a way to justify not liking other women to me. I have lots of female friends nowadays, and they range all over the place: gay, straight, smart, intellectual, superficial, nerdy, popular, feminine, not feminine, etc. and I STILL don't see any commonalities between them. It's fine to prefer the company of men, or certain types of women, but I don't think you need to make a bunch of essentializing generalizations in order to do so.

[hotcrab.livejournal.com]

catty. gossipy. fashion obsessed.

i'm sure you don't know anyone like that

[alicetiara.livejournal.com]

What's wrong with being gossipy and fashion obsessed?

[hotcrab.livejournal.com]

nothing. its just what she means by standard steroptype women

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

well, not really, although that's an aspect; I also mean the victim-types.

[alicetiara.livejournal.com]

Oh, OK. That helps.

I guess fashion-obsessed might actually be one case of when I think being socialized (by friends OR family) as super girlie might matter, but I do know lots of people who've gone back and forth between being fashion/trendy and not fashion/trendy at various times, regardless of upbringing. I certainly was not socialized to be fashionable, as all my little girlfriends were frumpy nerds and my mom's taste is awful, but I just love clothes and always have.

Gossipy/catty, no. Gay men are stereotypically both. How's that explained?

[hotcrab.livejournal.com]

because they are trying to be more girly than girls?

[wanton-bliss.livejournal.com]

Don't make me take off my shoe and do damage!

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

MEOW!@!!!

honestly I will say that straight guys can be just as gossipy as girls/gay men.

No shit, but stereotypes do exist for a reason.

[wanton-bliss.livejournal.com]

As an admitted misogynist, I will say that I find it highly unlikely that I am a catty bitch because I am trying to emulate women in any way, shape or form.

Steve needs to learn that being a cunt isn't a lifestyle choice; it's genetic.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

well, i did say it was my own rules of thumb
theories can change as i interact with people who don't meet them
but I'm slightly curious
as to why I never ever see you out with overweight girls

[alicetiara.livejournal.com]

Because I'm extremely shallow and I choose my friends based on appearance and nothing else? I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate, here.

[drisrael.livejournal.com]

I'm insinuating that you're extremely shallow because you choose your friends based on appearance and nothing else.

[alicetiara.livejournal.com]

You guys all know me so well.

[drisrael.livejournal.com]

it's not that I'm a chauvinist, but it's time for you to shut up and mix me a drink.

[hotcrab.livejournal.com]

this seems liek a lame attempt to explain your own mysogeny.

just because you don't fall into the typical girl socal behaviour of be nice in public, talk shit about people who aren't there doesn't make your experience definitive.

honestly, i always thought you were just too lazy to be nice in public.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

just because you are a misogynist doesn't mean I am. I'm not a misogynist.

[hotcrab.livejournal.com]

but at least you can spell it correctly.
i'm so much of one i don't even bother

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

snicker.

I think the idea of misogyny is stupid, because while there are certain behaviors that women indulge in that I hate, there's definitely (as you well know) stuff men do that I also hate. so, whatever, I can't be bothered to be nice to people unless I want to fuck them.

[janietrain.livejournal.com]

First of all, I had most of my female friends in childhood and now I'm anything but the typical female. I'd say that having early female friends is what scared me away from the female stereotypes. The best friends I've ever had have been male and they've had more of an influence over who I've become than anyone else.

Second of all, there's an evil subset of chicks who claim to be atypical in order to get laid more. They give women like me a bad rep. and they must be stopped.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

heh. as I said, I did have some female friends in childhood but they dropped me b/c I was unpopular.

and also I think it's funny to claim to be atypical in order to get laid more, b/c you know what? you just have to BE ATYPICAL and you get laid more. you don't have to fucking proclaim it.

[hotcrab.livejournal.com]

clearly, you forgot rule #1 about women.

if you ever say "ALL WOMEN do such and such"

every woman in the room will immediately refute that.

i should try that some time say something like.

"ALL WOMEN REFUSE TO SUCK MY COCK RIGHT NOW"

see if that works out for me

[patrick.livejournal.com]

hahaha, it's got to be worth the effort.

[sidspencer.livejournal.com]

that's interesting. it sort of makes me want to analyse why i'm so feminized (men mystify me, i communicate way better with women, i trust women more easily than i trust men), except that it's usually chalked up to the boring "growing up in a female-dominated household and having only buffoon adult males for role models". but i think what you've hit on is that you can't always easily figure out which is the catalyst for what. i totally agree that nature and nuture reinforce each other, though. if you're naturally drawn towards a "way", you'll probably follow it unless there's a big block there. since you didn't scramble after your childhood female-friends, i'd conclude that the gender of your friends and belonging to the group you're "supposed" to just doesn't matter much to you. i just found it impossible to find a group that wouldn't eventually ostracize me, so i kept to myself (except in 4th grade when there was a large group of us misfits).

now i'm lost in memories... and yeast.

[katyakoshka.livejournal.com]

I didn't have all that many female friends growing up, though the ones I did have were fellow non-girly-girl nerdish types, and some of them were longer-term friends. I've known gals whose friendships were split down the middle male-female, and with tomboyish tendencies, who are victimy, wedding-obsessive, and catty-gossipy-baskstabby-histrionic. It's only been in college and post-college that I have developed long-standing friendships with both women and men, as I tend to be a reclusive loner sort (and was moreso in the past).

I'd say that the development into or away from a stereotyped gender role is more in line with one's general conformity.

Those who have no strong personality traits differing from the norm will either be queen-bee social tyrants (if they do have strengths in the gender norm) or followers of varying degrees.

Girls who do differ, innately and as a result of their parents' influence, will not be as likely to be drawn into the mainstream-gender-role-forming crowd, and instead gravitate towards like non-conforming, independent, non-mold-fitting sorts.

And, if the personality of a girl is abrasive or ill-fitting with the group, despite her innate mainstream tendencies, she'll become part of the outside, though other influences (too much Sweet Valley High and watching of soaps, parents, etc.) will still nurture that propensity for the stereotype/role.

Of the two groups, the outsider one is more likely to include girls who are also friends with guys, because the clique-mentality isn't as strong.

The same goes for guys, most likely; those who conform to the mainstream roles for men tend to form their own networks of friends, while those who don't likewise tend to shy away from those networks (and are more likely to have friendships with both sexes).

Some people of both sexes seem play along with the dominant roles sometimes, throughout highschool, for instance, and then completely "change" afterwards (especially in college) -- find a realm where they can engage in the mainstream traits while also being able to exhibit non-norm tendencies or interests.

It's probably not gender specific, and I'd bet there's a combination of self-selection and external pressure (parental/familial, social) that determines the whole gender issue.

Damn. That's a fucking dissertation or some shit. *laugh*

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

heh. yeah.

[bewing.livejournal.com]

It may have been a dissertation, but I really liked it and found it very interesting! Well said!

[katyakoshka.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[billyfleetwood.livejournal.com]

the phrase "you all look alike to me" seems remarkably apt.

[lisa.livejournal.com]

that's what i was thinking.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

hahahah

[chris.livejournal.com]

the common thread here seems to be its more to do with the type of people you hang out with rather than the gender of those people. Yeah you can draw some strong parallels, but its ultimately more complex than that.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

yeah, i suppose "average" people hang out with "average" people and "marginal" people hang out with other "marginal" people.

[hotcrab.livejournal.com]

wow. that is the most boring. safest response ever. who are you? levar burton? is reading rainbow hiring?

[chris.livejournal.com]

Hey! nice to meet you too. and thanks for the critique. i think i'll print it out and frame it.

[lucidlife.livejournal.com]

Lmao. I love all things unsolicited.

[hotcrab.livejournal.com]

you could win 10 million dollars if you act now!

[elmolicious.livejournal.com]

so go watch 13 going on 30 and then go home and sleep alone.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

uh, eat my ass

[buckylea.livejournal.com]

wow, laural, you got a lot of haterz
or are those your friends?

anyway. i find this interesting. i grew up very shy of boys, but in love with them secretly. i have three sisters, no brothers and i always used this as an explanation for my ineptness at talking to boys. but when i was fourteen or so, i realised that boys were actually quite good to have as friends so as to offset the "girliness" of my female friends. and now at 22, the person whom i would call the closest thing to a best friend is a male. so basically i'm confused as to whether i'm uberfemme or tomboyish. i'm certainly more girly than you laural, but i've got nothing on most of the girls i know.
hmmmm.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

alice is just opinionated.