ethics and fidelity - thoughts

[lauralh]

In general* most people date other people - have boyfriends or girlfriends - with an implied (or outright) exclusivity clause. It's usually verbal, though, and of course isn't always followed through. I don't know that marriage is different, because while there's a written contract usually, the "forsake all others" thing is generally only spoken. But then there are lots of witnesses and shit. So basically adultery is a breach of contract, which is why people still get divorced over these things. Sure some people keep a willing blind eye, but it's in general a good reason for divorce.

My personal view is that I take marriage seriously. I'm sort of black-or-white on the issue, which is why I don't think I'd ever get married. I think the ideal is the only thing worth doing. Sure, if I personally meet someone that IS my ideal, and he feels the same way, we'll work something out. I'm just realistic enough that I can't really see it happening. But anyway. Because of this, I think adultery is despicable. Normally my "morals" are such that I don't care if I don't know the people involved - like I couldn't ever cheat on my boyfriend with a friend of his, but someone he doesn't know would be more acceptable. But I just think that if you're gonna go through all the farking trouble of marriage/wedding/ceremony, you better damn well be serious about it.

So. I would not marry someone unless they were, literally "THE BEST" I could do. And I would really never ever sleep with a married man. I read those ads in the personals about lonely husbands, and I'm honestly just disgusted. I mean sure I can see that they married women who stopped having sex with them, and that totally sucks, but that's the kind of thing you can figure out by living with someone. Not that I would know or anything. And doesn't everyone realize that you can only fuck someone about seventy-eight times before it starts to get boring?

OPP without the marriage, though, I really have no problem with. Except, like I said, with friends. On the other hand, in general knowing a guy has a girlfriend makes him less attractive. Because to me things that are attractive in a guy are the things that are good for actual relationships. Maybe for a hookup, but in general I have trouble even hooking up with someone whom I wouldn't date. So having a girlfriend is a disadvantage, maybe between being a casual smoker (I can deal with) and consistently drinking too much (I can't put up with). Really the only problem I have is that it means he won't be available.

Which means that, you know, the fact that he probably has to lie to his girlfriend or whatever doesn't bother me. I don't know why, except the "people you don't know" factor. And in general I have a rather pragmatic attitude about lying. I don't think honesty is the absolute best thing in the world bar none. I'm personally not very good at being dishonest, but if you can get away with it, more power to you. The problem is more getting caught lying, I think. It's all rather tricky, and I mainly stick to honesty, again, for pragmatic reasons. Which is probably why I haven't had an exclusive relationship since August; it's easier to tell someone "not gonna do it" than to say "OK" and still step around.

In my mind, if you're in a happy relationship, you're not gonna be out flirting with girls on a weekend night. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my take on it. So if a dude is gonna flirt anyway, it may as well be with me as with anyone else. BECAUSE I AM AWESOME.

*edit: forget the asterisk, which is just that Polyamory is different of course.

Comments

[soul4rent.livejournal.com]

And doesn't everyone realize that you can only fuck someone about seventy-eight times before it starts to get boring?

I can say for sure it's never got boring for me, with either of the two women I've done it with like, seventy-eight times. And it's not like we had to play kinky games for that neither. Is not as exciting as the first time with someone? Maybe, but it's definitely something I wouldn't pass up.

I think sex gets boring if a person has a halo on the idea of sex; sorta like it's just a been-there, done-him/her "life experience". In that case, of course it'll get boring, because after a while the illusions of bliss that people have taught to them by romantic movies start to yield to the reality of the fact that it's not necessarily a transcendental experience.

So what if some married guy wanted to get with you with the full knowledge of his wife? (i.e., he asked his wife if he could screw around and she says yes, that sort of thing) Is that acceptable?

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

see edit. In that case the same rules for GFs would apply, more or less.

and I was being a little sarcastic about the seventy-eight times. In reality, after about seventy-eight times or so, my interest slacks, but it's still there. But I know plenty of people who, after the initial "lustbunnies" part of a relationship wears off, have sex like once a month or something. Which to me seems utterly ridiculous, and I can certainly sympathize with people whose partners' sex drives are nowhere near their own.

[apotheon.livejournal.com]

From My Perspective:

Sex will stay interesting as long as you stay interested. Intimacy is key to a sustainably fantastic sex life.

Love is real. Been there, done that, never entirely lost the caring.

I don't think I could ever really bring myself to go any further than very casual sex with the sort of person that would cheat on someone ("cheating" meaning that the someone doesn't know about it), and wouldn't be able even to bring myself to have casual sex or, for that matter, a little necking or meaningful flirting, with someone that was currently involved in an exclusive relationship. I don't care to be part of a deception, and I don't care to try to make a serious relationship (even an "open" one) with someone that is likely to lie to me about something important, or really at all.

On the other hand, if you want an open relationship in which everyone agrees to and abides by whatever ground rules work for all involved, more power to ya. I might even be a part of it.

While I don't have any problem with "lying" in cases of what amounts to self-defence, I don't like deception of those that haven't earned it, and even if they have I'm not too keen on deceiving them when it's unnecessary to do so. Wanting to keep a dysfunctional relationship with an abusive and jealous asshole isn't justification for cheating on him. It's perhaps justification for beating the dogshit out of him and leaving him in a perfectly straightforward, honest manner, though (or having someone else beat the shit out of him).

Maybe I'm old-fashioned.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

so my thing is, that I'm very jaded and would like to believe some of this stuff you say, but have a hard time. Heh. And these are more guidelines than actual things I could or would do.

That being said, I have serious difficulties with the idea of an open relationship on my part, and probably on the part of the other person as well. I'm wired in the "he'll leave me for her" way, not the "he wants us both, lucky me" way. When I'm "involved" with someone I tend to just be less interested in pursuing other options. When I feel that interest again, it's typically because the SO isn't fulfilling any of my needs. Which, I suppose is why I'm not so harsh on cheaters. Granted, they should just BREAK UP instead of pussyfooting around, but like I said, I won't deny myself a bit of booty just because of that. Although, yeah, any guy who's too much of a pussy to break up with some bitch is not likely to interest me for long. And again I do see marriage as more serious and different. I don't necessarily even mean the legal route, either, if you see what I mean.

[apotheon.livejournal.com]

I do see what you mean.

Really, I try to avoid judging anyone on personal issues when it doesn't affect me or someone I know, but I still won't be a part of it.

a "no-tolerance" policy...

[greeneyeddragon.livejournal.com]

Nice simple rules for dealing with complex situations so that people don't have to think about them... You don't strike me as the type.

Re: a "no-tolerance" policy...

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

the type for what?

Re: a "no-tolerance" policy...

[greeneyeddragon.livejournal.com]

to not think.

you'd be surprised

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

I like to have rules in place so I don't have to think about them in the heat of the moment. Granted I spend hours agonizing over these rules in my head... I just find it more convenient to think when I have time, and react when I don't.

Re: you'd be surprised

[greeneyeddragon.livejournal.com]

Having rules and prepared thinking is reasonable, but relying on strict reaction based on those rules is not the right thing unless it's an emergency (where you would want trained behavior to be reliable - as in soldiers in combat, though that may not be the best analogy for your political bent). Treating the rules as a guideline with ongoing thought is better for normal life, because surprise is a wonderful thing. It's interesting that you are rehearsing for such a diverse array of situations, do you do anything spontaneously? (I don't mean that sarcastically, BTW)

The one thing I have a problem with in all of this is that I have been in the situation you describe. While I find that my personal honor was not worth much at that time, I think I would have missed out on something beautiful if I had not been open to the possibilities. It certainly might have made life simpler for everybody involved if I or my partner had rules like yours, I'm not sure life would have been happier for any of us. All in all, my honor was a worthy trade for what I got in return. I wish I could say that I knew myself so well when I was married that I would never have to face this type of situation, but with a good decade of retrospective, I think it's fair to say that people change enough that such guarantees are literally impossible.

[wanton-bliss.livejournal.com]

you can only fuck someone about seventy-eight times before it starts to get boring

Thank God for long distance relationships... 8 months and we are probably still somewhere in the high thirties.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

yeah in case everyone didn't realize it, that comment was a joke.

[wanton-bliss.livejournal.com]

I haven't had sex 78 times, so I wouldn't know.


:(

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't hook up with a taken guy because I need to be the center of attention.

I would have no compunction about breaking him up with his girlfriend, though.