mwahoil

[lauralh]

So I read some of the "how to get women to like you" sites out there, because it really truly puzzles me how otherwise interesting and handsome men can have such bad luck with the girls. I basically used to assume that these guys liked the girls who didn't like them, because they never liked me. Fuckin' "nice guys." But then again there's also the "most women are insane" theory, and anecdotal evidence seems to bear this out to the point that I'm "scared straight" in the most literal way possible. And reading these sites on how to pick up women - I mean, I can see how it could work on most women, but it terrifies me to the core that I'm gonna meet an otherwise great guy and he'll start pulling this kind of bullshit on me, and I'll be so frustrated that I'll never want to talk to him again.

--

Five days till birfday; party tomorrow. I decided to wear my black clingy dress to make it a sense of occasion. I hope I don't look too fat in it.

Comments

[sisyphus.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree more. People always try to send me to like fastseduction.com or some bullshit. I think it's kind of juvenile to think in terms of 'short-haired white girl from Seattle, what were the best ways of scoring with them again?' which a lot of those places seem to...we KNOW what women like already.

Although if those nice guys were getting tons of pussy they wouldn't need to go to those websites -- they're like Palestinians, desperate for something, anything, to save them from their humiliation and the fundamental injustice they feel has been handed down to them, even if it is something as silly as doubleyourdating, doclove, or fastseduction.

[daleth.livejournal.com]

I oughtta use some of that stuff next time I'm at the bar for comedic value.

[cpf.livejournal.com]

From the link:

"By accepting and reading this material you agree that: You understand this to be an opinion and not professional advice, it is only to be used for personal entertainment purposes, you are solely responsible for any use of the ideas, concepts, and content and will hold David DeAngelo harmless."

I'd love to see some kind of statistics from this guy's dating life. I read through that and got the impression that...

A: His relationships don't last very long. Probably about as long as it takes the women to figure out that he isn't the guy he was pretending to be when he introduced himself.

B: Picking up women is a game comprised of winning and losing and little more.

C: Power = success/happiness in relationships, rather than love and mutual respect.

Right at the top of the page he admits that he is applying a methodology for winning arguments (conflict) towards improving one's love life. Beginning a relationship with conflict is just poor judgment. There are only two outcomes...

1. He "wins" and is now involved in a conflict-based relationship. No fun.

2. He "loses" and has to start all over again.

I'm sure that the asshole womanizers of the world are grateful for his advice. Too bad the rest of us have to deal with the baggage those guys create for us.

[maggielange.livejournal.com]

ew. It's like, "how to go from a sad dude with no self-esteem to an arrogant asshole." The whole "healthy self-confidence" option is bypassed completely.

[meekgirl.livejournal.com]

yikes, did it again. that's my dummy account for responding to college friends.

[billyfleetwood.livejournal.com]

but it terrifies me to the core that I'm gonna meet an otherwise great guy and he'll start pulling this kind of bullshit on me, and I'll be so frustrated that I'll never want to talk to him again.

That makes you a rare flower in a garden full of weeds. I learned early on in my dating career to never underestimate a female's tolerance for bullshit. That said, I think those sites are laughable at best.(albeit fascinating) Most of that "dating theory" applies to a certain type of male, who desires a certan type of woman, within a specific socio-cultural framework. It doesn't really apply to anyone who falls outside that framework.

What it really comes down to is a little something that growing up we called game. As in don't hate the player, hate the game. These sites offer one specific type of rudimentary game to guys who have none. Can't really fault them for that.

As to the feeling that it's just teaching guys to bullshit and be arrogant pricks, well, taken the wrong way, sure. But think of it like basketball...In the game of basketball, fouling a member of the opposite team is against the rules, and something you try to avoid. Picking up the ball and dropkicking it into the stands is also against the rules, and something you try to avoid doing. But Fouling is still part of the game Dropkicking isnt. At the end of a close basketball, both teams will foul the other intentionally to gain an advantage, stop the clock, and regain posession of the ball, even though it means basically giving the other team a point or two. It's actually the best strategy there is at that point in the game. When you foul the other team, they don't get mad unless you foul somebody flagrantly when all it really takes is a simple touch foul.

I say that to say this...It would be great if we lived in a world where it was ok to put all of our physical, social, and emotional needs on a business card and walk around handing them to each other until we found a match. Unfortunately it aint like that, we have all sorts of taboos, fears and preconceptions, that require a comlex set of signals, rituals, bluffs and gambles to get past. Generally speaking while most boys are out hitting each other in the head with sticks and setting things on fire, girls are busy working out the minutiae of social engagement. At some point the boys have to put their sticks down, and catch up to the girls. I'm convinced that it's as simple as missing that one dance in Junior high, and you're behind for life. Those websites exist for the guys who missed that dance, and never caught up.

[daleth.livejournal.com]

Holy crap, you just gave me the best idea ever. Next time I go shopping for a date, I'm going to make myself a set of "dating business cards". I'll put a little bit of crap about me on the back, my name and number on the front, and hand those suckers out. The women will instantly know what kind of person I am, and whether or not they share any interests. This is so on my Agenda of Important Things That Must Be Done

[nuskoolbeatnik.livejournal.com]

i personally realized some time ago that as long as i felt like it there would always be more females to meet. i could have as many relationships i wanted and never feel satisfied with even one. been married now a year and a half and i see my relationship with my wife only gets better all the time. =)

my mommy always said I was speshul

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

I have a pretty low threshold for bullshit, and I'm basically like a puppy: if you pat me on the head, I love ya. If you hit me on the nose, I'll run away.

I'm not saying I can't play the game at all, I'm just not all that into it. I don't even like flirting with people unless I know where it's going to go. The main "bullshit" thing I don't like is when guys are told "don't appear interested." Because I'm always, always more interested in a guy after I know he likes me. I think people who are less interested after they know someone likes them, fundamentally has low self-esteem. "Oooh, he likes me. There must be something wrong with him because who'd ever like me."

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

Although if those nice guys were getting tons of pussy they wouldn't need to go to those websites...

Yeah I still think a lot of these nice guys could be getting pussy if they would go for the mousey innocent girls instead of the bitchy IP types.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

I think that following things like this word-for-word are stupid, sure, but I know that there are people my age who've never even been out on dates, so they need SOMETHING to boost their self-confidence. But still, I do think people with low self-confidence LIKE men/women who treat them like shit, because they think they deserve it.

[(Anonymous)]

OK, you don't seem to understand how easy women have it. Men have to pursue women, women rarely ever pursue men. So really, all women have complain about is "Why hasn't the right guy found me yet? I keep getting all these people who try but turn out to be someone who they're not. Nobody's impressed me yet." On the other hand, men have a ton of things to worry about: "I am my own worst critic, but how can I put aside the mistakes of previous phases of my life so I appear more confident than I actually am?", "How do I determine the expectations of this woman I'm interested in?", "How do I present myself in ways that will meet this woman's expectations and impress her?" To complicate matters more, we have to *guess* at the answers to those questions. I know this has led many guys to present themselves in an exaggerated manner that's unlike themselves just because they think a woman is expecting something different. Did you ever see the Futurama where Zap Brannigan gave Kiff a book of offensive pickup lines and told him that was the way to impress girls? The fact is, neither of them knew how to do it, so one's guess wasn't any better than the other's. Finally, a lot of our actions are based on society's expectations. You think women are subjected to cruel societal expectations with all the fashion magazines out there. Men are subjected not only to societal expectations of their own appearance, but also the societal expecations of the appearance of the kind of woman they're supposed to pursue. The fact is, we can't do anything about that, it starts from birth, and society continues to perpetuate it.

My advice is, stop treating yourself like a kissing booth, waiting for the right guy to come along. Actively search for and pursue him yourself. Furthermore, remember that guys can't read hidden implications in words and actions nearly as acutely as women (sometimes women even go overboard). Communicate, tell them what the hell it is you want out of them. You can easily shake a guy out of the whole "how can i make my plumage appear the way i think she expects it to appear" by just breaking the whole non-communicative pattern of false appearances and false guesses about expectations.

And believe me there are those of us who really dig the mousey innocent girls with big brains and good taste in music, but they hide themselves too much and yet still expect to be approached.

I dunno if any of that is accurate, but it's just one confused guy's perception of the whole situation.

[seanrestless.livejournal.com]

I don't think you were so wrong about guys liking girls who don't like them. I've always thought that the "nice guys finish last" crap that fuels the fantasies of those who patronize the "how to get women to like you" sites was a load of crap too. There are plenty of women who like nice guys but the problem is guys all too often fuck up by overlooking them in favor of the unavailable girls. The funny thing is although I realize how stupid it is objectively, in practice I all too often find myself guilty of it as well. Even though I really think that mutual interest is far more sexy than unrequited pining for someone, it never seems to stop me even when there are people out there who are far more available... So, yeah, while you can't really call guys like me desperate, we sure are fucked up when it comes to women.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

OK, um, who the fuck are you and why should I listen to anything you're saying? Maybe this shit is valid for certain people but I'm just talking about - guess who? Myself. My own experiences. And you clearly do not know jack shit about me or else you wouldn't accuse me of "hiding and still expecting to be approached." So fucking identify yourself or else I'll ban anonymous cowards commenters.

[victory-goddess.livejournal.com]

The sad thing is, people really do play games like this. And it's not only utter bullshit, but it complicates it more for those of us who don't pull this stuff because the people who we're trying to attract or are trying to attract us think they have to play like this.

I'm of the opinion that if you have to treat someone like shit or act a certain way against your better judgement, why bother? Find someone you can be yourself around! I mean, how long can you keep the game up when the relationship turns serious?

[(Anonymous)]

My name is Matt, and I'm just some random dude who followed a trail of people's friends lists here. It's my weird way of seeking out intelligent life. If my entire identity is that important, you may e-mail me at colonel_rhombus@hotmail.com and I'll give it all to you. You're right, I don't know shit about you, and I suppose it isn't fair of me to form a perception of you on a journal post without knowing more about you. I concede that and I'm sorry. I can tell you're a reasonable and intelligent person, and I want to be your friend. Please do not take my comments the wrong way, I don't mean to offend, only to offer a viewpoint from the other side. You don't have to listen to anything I'm saying, I will completely understand if you choose not to and delete this message-- I won't read your journal again.

>> it terrifies me to the core that I'm gonna meet an otherwise great guy and he'll start pulling this kind of bullshit on me, and I'll be so frustrated that I'll never want to talk to him again. <<
>> The main "bullshit" thing I don't like is when guys are told "don't appear interested." <<

There are two things I see here within how you say these things that contradict each other:

1) You seem to clearly know what it is you want, what you don't want, what you will put up with, and what you don't.
2) You're not as straight-forward and honest with people about what you want/expect and who you are from the very moment you meet them.

The real problem here is really with how relationships tend to start. Neither person really is honest and straight-forward with new people they meet from the start. In a lot of cases, people just don't really know what they want. But for the people that do know what they want, situations like the ones you talk about shouldn't happen. Very few relationships start with honesty and openness, they usually start with people attempting to make themselves appear appealing to the other person, no matter what parts of their personalities they have to hide at first. That's why so many relationships end in "this person totally wasn't who they appeared to be in the beginning". This is true of people regardless of gender, but it appears to be a male problem simply because we're expected to be the initiators, we're the ones expected to do the impressing not the judging.

>> I'm not saying I can't play the game at all, I'm just not all that into it. I don't even like flirting with people unless I know where it's going to go. <<

I gave the suggestion that possibly you should be more active in your pursuit. If you want to know where it's going to go, why not just ask the question explicitly? If you know where you want it to go, why not just say so explicitly? If you have a low threshold for bullshit, tell them. If you don't want guys turning out to be different than they appeared when you first met them, just tell them what it is you expect from the start. Make it known that you're a person who knows what they want, and that you're an honest and straight-forward person. At least with me, it doesn't matter who it is, I consider a person trustworthy if they're honest and straight-forward. The more a woman is unclear and abstract about what qualities she looks for in a man and what she wants out of a relationship, the more guys will fail trying to guess what the woman wants. Many times they'll fail in a horribly stupid manner, but if you don't do your own part to improve the communication right from when you first meet then you're only helping to perpetuate the problem.

Quite simply, if you don't like the way the game flows, change the rules.

-- Matt

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

I haven't really been trying this, because the thing is, at the moment I don't want a serious relationship. I realize that there are few men that can take honesty and straightforwardness (and I'm not trying to impugn men here, there's few women too, I just don't have to deal with them). I just want flings at the moment, and therefore very little matters apart from a few key factors.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

well, I know I'm right because of anecdotal evidence. The boys with low self-esteem couldn't be bothered with girls who had such poor taste to actually like them... it works both ways of course. And it's really terrible. Reminds me of a line in About A Boy (novel) where Will is thinking that "opposites attract" works because most people hate themselves.

Games

[mindgamer.livejournal.com]

YOUR gender plays games like this FAR more than we do.

I'd say that the link you posted is actually a REACTION of girls' natural tendency to play these mind games.

I know. You don't play them. But your looks simply don't warrant the need to these games. I've never had girls at your level of attractiveness attempt to play them on me with good reason.

sincerely,

anon

Re: Games

[mindgamer.livejournal.com]

...when i said looks i was referring to herbaliser. I don't know what you look like NikesStorm, so I can't judge.

sincerely,

anon

[poupou.livejournal.com]

You said "socio-cultural framework."

(How do you feel about socio-cultural webs? Better yet, socio-technical webs?)

[poupou.livejournal.com]

I want to try jewish speed dating

[victory-goddess.livejournal.com]

I guess you didn't pay attention to the pic thread on the IW forums then. Or didn't care. Either way ;)

nope

[mindgamer.livejournal.com]

No.

Why? Would you say that you are beautiful?

sincerely,

anon

[victory-goddess.livejournal.com]

I just said that cause my picture was on there (like pg 16? I think) although I typed something wrong and it turned into a link

But, yeah, I think I'm good looking

[mindgamer.livejournal.com]

Found it. It's a little hard to judge, since the picture is grainy and apparently two years old. But I think you're about on a par with Laural.

Would you disagree?

sincerely,

anon

hmmm

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

wait, are you saying I'm hot and don't need to play games or I'm ugly and don't need to play games?

Re: hmmm

[mindgamer.livejournal.com]

REALLY attractive girls get hit on all the time. They need some way of figuring out which guy to choose because there are literally THOUSANDS.

One of the ways which they've do this is to try and TEST you to see if you'll stand up to her (what she wants in a man) or by wimping out and giving into her every whim.

Most guys interpret this kind of behaviour as women trying to fuck with their heads for the hell of it.

Whilst most girls tell me that they want equal power in a relationship, they are most ATTRACTED to those who can dominate them. From an evolutionary standpoint, this makes perfect sense - choosing the dominant male(s) is a good way to make sure your offspring survive.

So whether or not YOU need to play games depends entirely on how many men you have to choose from.

sincerely,

anon

nice evasion

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

Personally I prefer to be dominated in the bedroom only.

[victory-goddess.livejournal.com]

Amen to that!! Nothin better than a guy who knows what he's doin in the bedroom

As for the games, even if you have a selection, I'm more for "which ever guy is boring me the least wins." Although, I guess that could be considered a game.

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

can I be shiksa-speed-dating?

[chronicfreetime.livejournal.com]

Many women do seem insane. But why should I tailor my behavior to them, when I want the sane ones anyway?

[herbaliser.livejournal.com]

Because you don't know any of the sane ones?

[chronicfreetime.livejournal.com]

I've found a few. Sometimes it is hard to find sane ones who do not consider themselves "taken".